Episode Sixteen: Lutalo Muhammad video transcript

Go, Go, Go,
I’m a bad man
Yeah buddy
What’s causing all this?
I shook up the world!
I am that damn good!


Radzi: Hello and welcome to another episode of Making Gains with me Radzi, in association with the University of Derby where they make it real, and Finnebrogues Naked Bacon, the biggest revolution to happen to British breakfast in a generation. Now our guest for this episode’s show can literally and metaphorically kick your ass. He is a two-times Grand Prix champion in Taekwondo, the one-time European champion, and the two-time Olympic medallist Lutalo Muhammad, welcome to Making Gains, sir!

Lutalo Muhammad: Thank you for having me. Um, awesome man, thank you for the introduction and love that uh, Muhammad Ali intro by the way, “I shook up the world!”

Radzi: Correct dude -

Lutalo Muhammad: Loved it.

Radzi: - not many people recognize that bit, that's exactly what it is!

Lutalo Muhammad: You got that stamina that's, that's the iconic uh, moment, beat Sonny Liston in 1964 Miami Beach. Love it, love it.

Radzi: Yeah, because it's, I think it might be Howard Cosell that speaks to him and it's -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: - It's the moment, no one thought it was going to happen and he shook up the world.

Lutalo Muhammad: Literally, literally talk about uh, one of the biggest uh, upsets uh i-i-in boxing history. I mean, I’m sorry I hope you'll indulge me I’m a big um, was you know, I’m a big fight fan like you and um, really, really into the history uh, as well of the sport and uh, you know I think that's what really uh kind of started off my journey uh, uh, with the combat sports. I mean, I remember going back to the first black heavyweight champion of the world, for example, Jack Johnson.

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: Um, um, my dad was an ex-boxer. He was a very good amateur and um, he kept, and he, when he was a boxer, used to study uh, the reels, you know the old reels, so he kept them, and I used to obsess about them when I was a little boy. So, uh, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, you know, Rocky Marciano, Sugar Ray Robinson, uh, Gene Tunney, uh, Dick Tiger, all the old great ones, um, Kid Chocolate. I used to um, love watching uh the old great ones, to me they were a bit like how kids today must see like, the Avengers and the Justice League -

Radzi: [chuckles]

Lutalo Muhammad: - to me they were real-life superheroes because all of them uh, not only were they experts in the ring, but they had larger than life personalities and I used to read about them watch them and really just obsess about them, have them on my wall and um, I think that just kind of just shows the power of uh, getting what you focus on and visualization because um, uh, it was just a dream one day that maybe I could be um, you know a version of those type of men where I could be recognized my fighting and um, um, kind of live that lifestyle. So um, yeah, um. You'll excuse me for uh, -

Radzi: Oh, carry on.

Lutalo Muhammad: - showing my geekiness though but I, really is um, every time I hear you know that “I shook up the world!’’ or these classic throwbacks it just reminds me of my childhood so much. Hours and hours of watching um, fights it was uh, my biggest passion and still is today to be honest Radzi.

Radzi: So there was a story I think from Cristiano Ronaldo where basically uh, one of the players at United um, he'd said something, like they were referencing an old United player and one of the players, said “Who's that?” and Ronaldo said, “What do you mean who's that?’’ This by the way is when, when he was at Real Madrid. He said “What do you mean who's that? He used to play for your team. You've got to know your history,” and I think of Mike Tyson, because of Cus D’Amato he had a library that he used to access, and he once said, “I used to know what they were going to throw before they were going to throw it themselves. I’ve seen stuff that many times,” and then, I can, I’m not even going to say which fighter it was. I was working at a boxing event, and I said to this guy “You've got a physique like Jeff Lacy,” he turned to me -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes

Radzi: - and said, “Who is Jeff Lacy?”

Lutalo Muhammad: Oh come on, that's not, that's not even that long ago!

Radzi: - and he’s a professional, this guy's a professional boxer. I do not understand how you can't - I’m all about this thing behind me, ‘pursuit of excellence’, and what you're talking about is understanding the history because you can learn so much from that to kind of move forward.

Lutalo Muhammad: You're uh absolutely spot-on and um, my uh, dad was, who was my instructor by the way for people who don't know. He's the one that got me into the martial arts, taught me everything I know from when I was about three years old, and he was a student of uh, of combat sports, and uh, I believe he was greatly motivated when he saw what Cus D’Amarto did with Mike Tyson and um, he wanted to ensure that because I had the goal and the vision of being a fighter that he um, uh, accommodated me in a similar way. So um, being a student of whatever field you're in is the first step toward excellence, and I love how your podcast, uh, is called the pursuit of excellence because I believe that excellence um it's, it’s weird. I believe you can achieve it, but I think, I believe the moment you think you have achieved it is the moment you stop uh, being excellent. I think um, when you look at the great ones um, whether it’s in any field uh, we'll focus on sports, for now, like say uh, Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan, for example, they're always thinking about what's next -

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: - what's next. How can I improve my game? And they never ever shied away from the foundations? They always shot the basic shots uh, that a lot of high schoolers mates stop doing when they get to college. They always took it right back to the roots, they were all students of the game because of their um, um, uh, uh, their star power and celebrity. Talking about Kobe and Michael specifically, they were actually able to have access to those great champions before them. So Kobe were always referenced like uh Jerry West who was a great Laker before him, and Magic Johnson, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. So um, and Michael uh, you know, the same, he always used to reference uh, say, Jerry West or Wilt Chamberlain. Uh, I know he was very good, um, friends with Bill Russell. Um, so these are NBA players and I think it's a constant theme, anybody who really achieves the pinnacle uh, at their sport, they're always students of their particular field and um, I just feel very blessed that my dad was smart enough to notice that and uh, fortunately for me I, uh, I feel, I just fell in love with fighting at such a young age and it doesn't feel like a chore for me to study the great champions. Whether it's in Taekwondo uh, whether it's in Karate, whether it's in boxing because as a combat sports athlete I believe I can learn something from every type of champion and I really have.

Radzi: It's uh, and to your point, you think of someone like George Foreman. George Foreman sparred with Sonny Liston and that was because Dick Sadler, George Foreman's coach basically said “The guys are intimidated of you before they actually get in the rings, they're not sparring with you. The only guy I’ll be able to find who will not be afraid of you is Sonny Liston,” and George in his autobiography basically tells the story about the fact that he said, “I see this guy sign a list and arrive in the gym. He laces up his gloves and he looked tiny because he was a relatively old man.” I think he used to lie about his age at the best of times. So he said, “I thought ‘I’m just going to destroy this guy.’ So we went to touch gloves and he looked straight at me,” he said, “I knew this guy was not afraid of me in the slightest,” he said. “So we sparred, and it was fine but at the end, he’s walked straight up to me and says, ‘You're a big man, but you think you're a bad man. I’m the real bad man, but I can teach you how to be as well.’ ”

Lutalo Muhammad: Wow.

Radzi: - and he said, “I would like to learn,” and so Sonny then basically teaches him, and that's why George Foreman then became the original baddest man on the planet, because - after Sonny Liston and before Mike Tyson.

Lutalo Muhammad: Oh, without a doubt.

Radzi: Right, and so - I say what's a shame in Karate, so, before you even get onto yourself, is Karate at the Olympics. I thought, I’m so interested to see the GB setup join in Manchester because there are so many things that they can learn, specifically from Taekwondo and I thought “Ughhhh,” and Jordan just fell short of qualifying and I think had he made it, oh man. Some - if any other guys have made it, they could have been dangerous, but I think specifically because they could have learned from you guys.

Lutalo Muhammad: Absolutely, absolutely, you know um, uh, well we'll get, talk about Karate first. Yeah, like you, I was gutted when uh, Jordan or JT as I call him didn't make it. Um just, you know what he, he was unfortunate with um, um, some injuries in the build-up to the qualification and a few things um, you know, uh, uh, in Karate a little bit political? What you just mentioned there, coming in and learning from GB Taekwondo um, it, unfortunately, that didn't really go down what so well with some of the uh, higher-ups in um, in uh, Karate. You know I’m not a Karate athlete I’m not afraid to say it but um, I know um, I know that was difficult for Jordan as well, but he's a champion and um, you know I had a really good chat with him the other day and I think uh, he's gonna have some very exciting announcements in the uh, in the next year.

Radzi: Nice one.

Lutalo Muhammad: Um when it comes, when it comes to his uh, his career and I won't spoil it but um, he's uh, let's just say he's, he’s doing some uh, some different training -

Radzi: Okay.

Lutalo Muhammad: Uh currently, and I think uh, you're gonna see some really cool things in the next year so um, uh, all, but he's still involved in Karate as well. I know he's going for another world championship uh, in Karate as well so um, um, unlucky to him. One of the things about Karate if I may say so, and I don't know what your opinion was about the Olympics, was um, I, I think they're extremely explosive. I love how they're kind of, it's like first off the mark like sprinters, but for me did you see the knockouts um, uh, in the Olympic final where I believe Saudi Arabia knocked out the uh, Iranian with a crisp front leg roundhouse kick um, and it just caught him perfectly and he was out and unfortunately due to the semi-contact rules in Karate. Um, which is based, which is very subjective, it's purely based on the judge's discretion, it was ruled uh, that he used too much aggression or too much power and the guy that was knocked out, being taken away on a stretcher won the gold medal and the other guy was disqualified meaning he got silver. For me when um, this is the only time Karate is scheduled to be in the Olympics, it's not gonna be in Paris that's what we know so far. Um, I just felt like when the whole world is watching um, this new exciting Olympic martial art, I just felt like it was such a shame that um, those judges ruled that because to me that's what, I mean with most respect to the Iranian, yes getting knocked out isn't fun however this is combat and let's face it that's what people want to see. So I really felt like that was a mistake on the judge's side. Did you, did you see that fight and what was your thoughts on it if you did?

Radzi: So, my thoughts on it would be, so twofold. One, when you have rules, those are the rules that are in front of you and so let's just say in long jump, if you happen to jump one metre and I have a no jump i.e. my foot is on the board and I happen to clear eight metres -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: - you still win.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: Regardless of the fact that I’ve jumped seven metres more than you because the rules dictate that your foot cannot cross the line and no matter if somebody said, “Right, let's penalise Radzi two metres because he's still beating Lutalo by four metres,” the rules are the rules, the same with false starting. Now we only have a one false start rule in athletics, so for me, the issue would be, there will, there will be, obviously be no opportunity to change the rules because it's not at the next Olympics, but it would be not so much about condemning the current, condemning the scenario but I would condemn the rules, with a look to change the rules that's what I would say. I would also just add that, so, where it's tricky is if you throw a front kick with the most perfect precision, and I decide I’m going to headbutt your kick -

Lutalo Muhammad: [chuckles]

Radzi: That's probably going to knock me out.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: And so and therein lies the dilemma. Where does control but recklessness on my part kind of begin and end? Um, but the thing that hurt me about it is that I love Karate, I’ve grown up with it.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yeah.

Radzi: I could list you Karate world champions. You mentioned Jordan, his dad was a world champion. There's a guy called Wayne Otto arguably the.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes, Wayne Otto was the real deal.

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: Jeff Thompson um, you know Donovan.

Radzi: Vic Charles.

Lutalo Muhammad: Exactly! Vic Charles, yeah bad, bad men in the 80s. Bad!

Radzi: And even you know, in France there's a guy called um Alexandre Biamonti for example, actually.

Lutalo Muhammad: Ooh I’m not familiar with him.

Radzi: As a, as per, so as a guy who loves Taekwondo, as you do this guy ahaha. I’m gonna say, artist.

Lutalo Muhammad: Really?

Radzi: I’ll genuinely send you some stuff on Instagram and I think you'll love it. It's, it's beautiful.

Lutalo Muhammad: Please.

Radzi: But that's what I’d have loved to have seen. I wanted to just see wow moments that really put a showcase on for Karate and I felt as though.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: What the biggest issue with Karate, with Taekwondo - in fact, let's go back to 2012. Now you are in, this is your bronze medal match, which you win.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes, I do.

Radzi: It might even be in the first round, the first two minutes. I do not know the move, but basically, you do a jumping spinning kick, miss, and then hit him on the, on the way down almost. I don't really know how to describe it. It was, like it was a proper techin move and I thought, “How was this, how was this guy doing it at the Olympics?” and that's what I wanted for the Olympics, which wasn't to be but in Taekwondo, you do see it which is the big problem that Karate faced.

Lutalo Muhammad: I, I yes, I think that's um, um, a fair um, point when it comes to Karate um, I don't know, I, I know, I think I will go back to the rules. I think the rules probably do need to um, uh, maybe uh, change a bit. I’m not a Karate expert although I’m a big fan um, so I can't say exactly what it is, but I know that's one thing that we have well, one thing Taekwondo has tried to do, is try to make it more appealing so it can be a tv ready Olympic sport, and I think we all saw certainly in uh, a couple months ago, in my opinion, it is the best Taekwondo has ever looked as a as a sport. I-In my, in my opinion, I think um, the high scoring matches the um, particularly with the British athletes, we saw high drama last-second drama - it wasn't just me guys.

[Both laugh]

Lutalo Muhammad: So um, you know, you know we saw that with Lauren, we saw that with Bianca, we saw that with Bradley and many others from other nations. I feel like the rules are just a nice point now where they're easy enough to understand um, to an extent and I think uh, because of the amount of points that get on the board, because uh, um, they have awarded more points for more complicated kicks so you can very, I mean I say easily. For a professional it's not uncommon to be, you know, five, seven, ten points ahead and that to change literally in one exchange and I think that does make it quite exciting, it's always quite gripping. So um I do think the rules are a happy medium right now whereas Karate I, I, I, think the major prob, the major advantage to Taekwondo has got over Karate is that the judges have left, less involvement. The electronic body protection takes care of the vast majority of the scoring. In Karate we see, and I go back to that knockout in the Olympic final um, we've both seen knockouts which have been fine, so how do you how do you balance that like if, oh that was a controlled knockout. It's like for me that's very, very subjective and um, um, that but I think that's, that's the issue and look it's not just Karate. There was some dodgy boxing decisions and there always has been -

Radzi: There always has been, yeah.

Lutalo Muhammad: - at least because let's face it and I’ll be brutally honest, sometimes the British have been on the um, on the good end of it, sometimes we've been on the worser end. You know obviously, I’ve had a vested interest in Team GB when I’m watching the last couple of Olympics but um, I think uh, about boxing in the amateurs and in the pros uh, the MMA and what's the common link between all these sports as well as Karate is that you have um subjective judging because -

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: - it's based on um, um. If, me and you can both be watching the same fight. You might be admiring the harder, more uh, denser shots that have landed, whereas I might think “Okay he controlled the ring uh, controlled the ring, more of his ring craft, his footwork, of his movement and his shots maybe weren't as hard, but I felt like he was technically better.” So we could be watching the same fight and have two completely different conclusions, whereas uh, with Taekwondo, because of the electronic system, whether you love it or whether you hate it, it takes that out of it, and I think that, oh I think that is a positive and it'd be very interesting to see how combat sports evolve. Um, whether you know uh, we do see changing in the scoring because I know um, obviously famous commentator Joe Rogan is a massive proponent of some sort of uh, scoring change in MMA and in boxing as well as many others so um, I do think that's one of the reasons why Taekwondo has uh done well. Uh, I know we were one of the most viewed, well I’ll be honest, last time I checked it was the most viewed sport. I think it helped that we were at the um -

Radzi: Is that right?

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes, so um, this was about maybe 10 days in we still had the record for the most viewed sport. I think it was um, helped by um, um, it being early uh, there being high drama moments and um, uh, you know, uh, myself and some of the other um analysts uh were going viral so that helps it a lot as well. So um, yeah, really interesting uh, I think it's the best Olympics uh, best Taekwondo's ever looked at the Olympics and I think those are some of the reasons why.

Radzi: I think also, back to your point. One of the big issues I’ve always had with Karate is you're seeing, so we call it a Gyaku-zuki which is a reverse punch. If me and you both throw a reverse punch what's going to happen is -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yeah.

Radzi: We’re not really going to touch; we're not going to sink it in and we're then going to both run away screaming “Yeah!” -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: - and that's when it's, guys come on come on now. Let's, let's actually, this is either a combat or it's a dance or it's tig and, and that's the problem is they spend half the time shouting about how much they sunk it in and even, even other big things have been taken away. One thing that would give them a USP over Taekwondo are the amount of sweeps that you would get in a normal conversation -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: But not in the Olympics, they've reduced the amount of throws because of the grabbing. There's a guy called uh, I think it's, it's not Aghayev, um, anyway he's from Iran. No, he's not from Iran. Okay where's he from he's from.

Lutalo Muhammad: Azerbaijan?

Radzi: Yes, he is from Azerbaijan, thank you, and he's regarded basically as the Maradona of uh, uh, of Karate and he's won multiple world titles, but his big thing is throws. Well, they've taken away this element of throwing because it has to be so clean that it's almost impossible to actually do, which means that while he would now be trying to get this perfect sweep somebody's just going to reverse punch -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yep.

Radzi: And even though in reality it's not really going to do any damage, in competition it is and so that for me is another thing. Let's, why don't we favour big scores for big high-risk things because otherwise guys are going to stay safe all the time and that's why I suppose in your situation 2016 it kind of went against you personally but it's drama -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yeah.

Radzi:- all the way. In fact, shall we, shall we talk about 2016?

Lutalo Muhammad: Sure.

Radzi: Because the thing that hurt me most about seeing the outcome for yourself. First of all, Olympic silver medallist, flipping wow! But it was your dad and you writing on a poster in 2000 that you were set to become, the dream was Olympic champion in 2016. Like, did you think about that going into Rio?

Lutalo Muhammad: You know, I can't actually say um, uh, I was totally aware. Yeah, it crossed my mind, I think um, uh, uh, probably a little bit after I qualified but, oh wow you know that's kind of surreal. This is the year where um, uh, I, I, plan to win so um, I was um, aware of it, uh, but you know going into that final I was just thinking more about um, just uh, following my game plan as perfectly as possible and um, just being as clinical as I could um, uh, and you know obviously it was going well and I remember uh, getting to the last bit of the fight and I remember the, the crowd counting down from 10 with me. There was a few like, kind of referee pauses but I remember it vividly getting down to one and I heard the crowd cheering as if I had won, however the match was still going and I thought, “Oh this is weird.” So I was still in the moment, I was still um, um, uh, fighting but I was aware, it just felt like one was cheering and it just felt like one second, two seconds, three seconds before okay well the fight's still going on. Then uh, he threw a terrific uh, technical kick, a spinning kick which gives you the highest amount of points which is what he needed to land if he was gonna win and um, obviously I tried to block it. I think it just uh, got me and boom then, then the match was over and then I heard the like, the uh the artificial bell go, and it was like “Ah,” and you know it was years ago and uh, obviously I am over it but at that time it was just so devastating Radzi. So like you said when you've been building towards something your whole life, um, and no one goes into an Olympic final thinking about silver. When you, when you fight your way into an Olympic final, gold is the only thing on your mind and that's my mindset anyway, but it was heightened because it's the Olympic final. This is the um, what was ready to be the crowning moment of my career in my life really because um, like I mentioned when you've been admiring and obsessed with fighting since a little boy and, you know, having my dad training me since I was a little boy. My entire family supported me, focused um, everything you know, nutrition, travelling around the world, everything was geared towards that moment and for it to, I don't want to say it was snatched away, but for it to feel like it was snatched away um, uh, and to see Cisse, who was my opponent from the Ivory Coast, uh, who won gold kind of celebrating wildly and overwhelmed with emotions and running into the crowd, um. You kind of visualize that's what you'll be doing but when you see your opponent doing it and just a, just, the steady realisation that not only have you lost the Olympic final you've um, have to wait you know a bare minimum of four years to even get the other, another opportunity to fight to get into an Olympic final. It was devastating, it was heart-breaking. It was all those things and um, you just, you just feel like, everything's just caved in, and you just feel like you're gonna sink into that ring and although you're in a packed arena, ten thousand sold out, you feel like you're completely alone in there and you know, it's it's, it, it was sad at the time. Obviously, I had this subsequent interview which went viral, and it was very emotional. It was very raw um, it was very honest because uh, it was like 30 seconds after the fact. I didn't really have time to compose myself or think about any media uh, training or, or anything like that. Um, it's, it was one of those uh, really, really tough moments but um, it's those moments that make you that, that make you. They literally make you or break you and um, uh, those uh, you know, I’m grateful for the way it's toughened me up as a person, as a fighter and kind of as a man. It taught you know, those kind of moments teach you a lot about life. That hey um, just because uh, you work for something, just because you seemingly deserve something doesn't mean you're always gonna get it and um, that's okay. In a way you, I mean obviously you have a right to be disappointed, you have a right to be upset or angry for a period but I only say that's okay because life goes on and you have to move on. You have to keep looking forward and ultimately when something's in your past now it's uh, it's outside of your control and um, you may as well lean into it and by leaning into it I mean you may as well learn from. You may as well study um you know, the build-up. Not just the fights itself, but the build-up to the Olympics. What could I have done better? How could my preparation have been um, even more, professional um, could I have um, could I have seen that coming? Could I have prevented it? Uh, maybe if I had um, done this certain inspiring situation a little bit more um, mentally perhaps I should mentally have rehearsed that situation a bit more. So for me, the process of coming out of that slump was um, taking accountability, taking full responsibility like, and yeah okay like you mentioned at the beginning. Don't get me wrong, I’m very proud to be an Olympic silver medallist. It's a wonderful achievement but um, um, instead of moping around being depressed, taking control of the situation like, how can I take action here? And how can I um, and if this is painful like it was to me, what can I do to ensure uh, that this never happens again? And I’m not saying I’m never gonna lose again, however, how can I um, ensure that, that particular um, uh, um, way of losing doesn't happen again? And I feel like that's what losses are for, they're almost necessary on the journey uh, in a way because those losses um, um, uh, you can use that to keep correcting, correcting yourself, correcting yourself um, because um, I’m not a believer that you know you, you have to um, lose lots of times and uh, you know it builds character. Winning builds character too, so why not win? And um, for me uh a loss only stays a loss, it only stays um uh if you don't learn from it. So if I can learn, if I can improve and that, that, that kind of mindset only comes when you take full accountability um, uh, uh, for, for what happened. So I feel like I’m a better um, version of myself um, mentally and physically than I was in 2016 because I learned and studied um, uh, lessons from not just the Olympic day itself but the whole build-up to the Olympics and um, I’m applying them now and that's why I believe that um, uh, 2024 Paris will be very successful for me. So in a way, it was unfortunate that it happened at the time but the lessons I’ve learned from it uh, have certainly made me a better and stronger athlete so yeah, I, I lean into what I can control which is um, is my daily commitment and my daily study to be a better Taekwondo athlete.

Make it real at the University of Derby.

Radzi: So I was trying to do skeleton bobsled at one stage um.

Lutalo Muhammad: Okay.

Radzi: The Winter Olympics in 2014.

Lutalo Muhammad: Wow.

Radzi: Now it didn't happen for me obviously, it didn't happen. I went to the British trials and long story short we were told the rules stated if you came top 10 in GB you'd be going in the British champs. Me and my mate Leon came ninth and eighth and then basically they moved the goal posts because we came from outside the system was what happened. Now when I look back at that roll on, so that was 2010 November, roll on three years, I get a show called Wild on CBBC, that's because they wanted somebody with an extreme sports background. I’m fast forwarding through uh, three years very quickly here. Did that for, for ten weeks and off the back of that got Blue Peter. Now I love what I do for a living. I’m so grateful, I am ,I’m blessed. I feel a sense of gratitude most days but, so I could look at it and rationalise it and say you know what quote unquote “Everything happens for a reason.” I could chuck all sorts of cliches out there to justify why I prefer what I’m doing now to what I would have had then, but if the truth be told, I think about that quite a lot, I think about how different my life would have been and so I don't know if I’ll ever be 100% over it if that makes sense, and that wasn't me at an Olympics that was just the opportunity to compete for Great Britain in the hope that I would have gone to 2014, what would have been Sochi. So -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: People might say “Ah Lutalo it, it must have taken a while to get over it,” but you're the person who's living that every day you're almost living the consequence of that. So how, how often if ever at all do you even think about that moment because it was so binary, it was one second.

Lutalo Muhammad: I um of course I think about it. I, I think realistically it uh, I think about it um, when like, for example, I was, I got injured before the 2020 games. It was just um, a very unfortunate run for me, had a couple of injuries that just prevented me from qualifying. That's life, it is what it is. You know, we talk about disappointments, it is what it is. However um, it's moments like that maybe when um, you know you start to get some injuries and you don't even, you don't qualify you know my mind will go back to and think, “Oh man if only I had won that gold medal then even if I even if I’m, I’m in a situation I’m in now at least I would have been Olympic champion,” because um, now it's like the uh, “Oh I may never become an Olympic champion. I missed my chance; I missed my opportunity.” Um you know you never, most Olympians um, I don't if you know Radzi, uh, most it's very, it's actually quite rare for people to go to more than one Olympics. The majority, I saw a statistic, I think it was about 70% or maybe over only ever go to one Olympics. So the fact that I’d already been to two and now I hadn't qualified on my third attempt it was like “Is this ever gonna happen?” and that's when it kind of goes back to “Oh man if only I’d won in 2016.” But I think what you have to do uh, when you have those situations is um, uh, accept, you know accept the reality of it. I think you might, you said it really well there, because it was so binary, because it was like literally so close it's always going to be with me, it's always going to be something that um, occasionally I think, but no matter how great my life is Radzi. If I go on to win three gold medals in a row from now, I’m always going to think about “Ah, missed that one in 2016.” That's life and I think um, progress happens when you recognize it's completely normal, it's human nature. You're always going to think about what you didn't get, or you know, what you didn't have, or I mean, you know I can still remember some of the toys that my mum refused to buy me.

[both chuckle]

Lutalo Muhammad: So you know you're always gonna have those um, those little things in life and like I said um, if you dwell on that too long that's when I think it's unhealthy but ,I think it's perfectly normal that's gonna cross your mind because we're not robots.

Radzi: Right yeah.

Lutalo Muhammad: you know we're human beings we're, we're emotional, and you've got to remember the moments that gave you pain, especially when you feel like you're hard done by. I mean one of the things that really, kind of um, hurt me a bit at the time is that, that countdown that I described, where it felt like it was it, you know, it was long. Actually wasn't just a, a weird feeling it was actually facts. The clock was slow so the fight should have been over.

Radzi: No. Way.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes, the clock was a few seconds slow which is why -

Radzi: Wooow.

Lutalo Muhammad: It was like almost that weird limbo was like so exactly. however once the result is done you can't appeal it, but GB Taekwondo did an investigation, enforced an investigation. So technically, I should be the Olympic champion right now, however like you just mentioned in your situation, is it’s hard luck, that's life. We see all the time in sports where you know a decision may be, and I’m not taking anything away from uh, Cisse, he threw a terrific kick, like I said I take full accountability. Um, sometimes the clock is gonna be slow, sometimes you are gonna get judges that score something differently, that's life. Uh, you know what I could have controlled better was um, was my um, perhaps my defence, you know my arm was here maybe it should have been here. It is what it is, I just focus on what I could have done better and for me that's what keeps me um, well how I can look back at it as a healthy uh, minded individual, is that when I look back and i think of it. I mean, what I’ve just mentioned there I rarely ever mention because I kind of feel like it's shifting the blame. It is what it is, I mean, it’s nothing -

Radzi: It’s fact, it's a fact though. If that's the case, then that's a fact. That's not an opinion, that's not you saying, “Woe is me.” You’re -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yeah, it is a fact, yeah.

Radzi: Yeah. So let's take Bianca. She, she was injured um, in Tokyo -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: And she didn't mention it until afterwards, and she happened to say on camera when I was working for Eurosport and, but she said it so flippantly. She just said um, “I basically need to go and get my ankle fixed,” and, and I said, “How do you mean fix?” She said, “Ah I ruptured a tendon,” and I said, “Rupture or tear?” she went “Rupture.” “When did you do it?” “Six weeks ago,” and I just thought “Wow.” Now again that wasn't her saying the reason I lost was because of this, these are, that's a fact the fact -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yeah.

Radzi: Is she was injured going into it.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yeah.

Radzi: And so, mate, how do you deal with what happened in 2012 because, for most people you mentioned, not many people get to go to a second Olympics. I don't know what the stats would be but how many get to compete in a home Olympics?

Lutalo Muhammad: Wow. Oh, barely any.

Radzi: And there you were right, 20 years old, and then you have to overcome the controversy which gets spoken out on the news by journalists, not experts and, now I’m not sat here saying - so the scenario was Aaron Cook at the time representing GB number one in the world, we've got yourself, European Champion. Who do they choose? They decide to choose you. Without getting into the kind of intricacies, the result was your family basically get death threats off the back of this and you're 20, you're green as grass! I mean I’m thinking about myself at university. I wouldn't know how I wouldn't be equipped to deal with that, journalists asking, “How do I feel?” and all that, and all I’m meant to be thinking about is the Olympic games, like how the hell did you cope with that time?

Lutalo Muhammad: I think it was very tough. um the pressure was tremendous, and I always say there's positive pressure and there's negative pressure. I was very unfortunate at the time to be um, to receive negative pressure where it felt like uh, no one wanted me to go um, and that if I didn't win uh, if, anything less than gold would have been a total failure. Even if I had won the gold, oh it should have been somebody else. So it was a horrible atmosphere going in, I’m not going to lie to you Radzi. It, it wasn't very pleasant, and I feel like people like Jessica Ennis and Mo Farah would have been, would have had tremendous pressure too, however that pressure was positive where it was like people willing them to win.

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: Unfortunately I felt like, it felt like uh, from the media um, kind of um, stuff that was coming out there was a, it was painted, as you know, I was painted a bit like the villain and unfortunately if you go to the comments there was people kind of willing me to lose, and you mentioned some of the uh, really nasty um, letters that my family will get through their um, uh, um, um, letterbox, my dad's place of business .Uh, media um, following my dad to his place of business, following my mum when she’s out shopping. So, knowing that it's affecting your family is um, is a, was the most difficult thing and if um, yeah that was the hardest part really. I was less concerned about me. I just really, I hated to see my mom and dad so stressed and, unfortunately as a result that stressed me out. Although GB Taekwondo did a very good job of kind of keeping me in a protective bubble and interestingly, I don't know if you noticed Radzi, but we actually practiced um, sparring situations like Olympic test days with uh, speakers turned up with boos um, and um, heckling so I could get accustomed to it if the stadium was um, was receiving me negatively. I think it just kind of shows how powerful um, the media can be. The situation at the time was um, Cook had a very um, a powerful and influential agent. Um, very good links with the media and you know. One thing led to another and uh they had the media, media support. So it, I think it really shows how the media can paint um, a certain picture because I’m very happy to say Radzi. When I went out to the first time uh, into the Olympic stadium uh, the, the, the crowd was overwhelmingly positive, and it really gave me a lift and a boost but unfortunately all the way up until that moment I was expecting the very worst, and as you alluded to, with everything that was going on you couldn't really do anything but that. Um, and like I said, we even practiced um, fighting with um, uh, heckle, heckles and boos. Um, so that's what it felt like going into 2012 um, but similar to the situation in Rio. What a, what a way to pop your Olympic cherry. Um, uh. I felt like the pressure I was under was like a baptism of fire. I really, really made it. That, that sequence of events made me mentally stronger than perhaps you know perhaps anything uh, in my life.

Radzi: Can I jump in cause, uh, the other dynamic was that you had, so Aaron was, so Bianca Walkden. Um, spoken to her on Making Gains actually.

Lutalo Muhammad: Wow.

Radzi: Love Bianca, wicked girl.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yeah, she's great, she's great.

Radzi: The fact that she was part of GB at that point as well kind of -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: That makes it further complicated for yourself. Where I suppose all you really want to do, it's like being, let's say in a workplace, where you ultimately need to cathartically vent. You, you need to have that sense of trust and how can you have that when the woman who loves and is in love with ultimately the guy who you are coming up against is, it's like a strange love triangle and then at the heart of this love triangle isn't lust, it isn't sex, it's the Olympic games that you're also in love with. Like that is such a young age, and you mentioned kind of practising the boos. Emotionally that must have been so draining to walk out there. It's one thing like that expectation of deliver, adrenaline, but when there's emotion attached to it that must have just been exhausting mate.

Lutalo Muhammad: Absolutely. I mean uh I’ve always had a great relationship with Bianca.

Radzi: Yeah.

Lutalo Muhammad: She's now engaged to be married.

Radzi: Yeah, in the colosseum she got engaged.

Lutalo Muhammad: Absolutely, absolutely that's a very cool proposal, um, and um, you know my relationship with Aaron right now is great. You know so um, uh, very happy to say that uh kind of moved forward from that time, but at the time it was extremely awkward, it was extremely awkward because Bianca was the reserve to Sarah Stevenson, so we were in all the same sessions we were doing, we were, we were the Olympic group. So it was extremely um, uh, I guess it must have been difficult for her. However, um, again I felt like the, the mental levelling, levelling up actually started to happen from there because it was like when you're forced uh, in a situation. You know it's gonna happen, I know I’m gonna have to compete, so I have to prepare the best I can and be the best I can, and I did my best on that day. Bronze was uh, what my best delivered but um yeah, I just, I lean into the positive. It made me so mentally strong and yes like you mentioned it was such a um, a weird and tough situation. However, it made me a tougher person so although I still wouldn't say I’d wish that on anybody, it did happen, so I just had to accept it and I have to be pleased with the fact that it made me uh, mentally stronger. Although I would be lying to you Radzi if I said if I could go back and change it uh, I wouldn't. I, I wouldn't wish that kind of build up, I wouldn't wish that kind of pressure on somebody's parents uh, on anybody. So it's, it you know, it got nasty, it got out of hand uh, but it happened, and it made, it helps is one of the things that made me the man I am today.

Radzi: Do you know one thing I was speaking to somebody about was, and I won't actually ask you about it, but I’ll ask you another example. so CJ Ujah. So as I speak to you now, so it came out in the news, positive D sample so presumably they're going to lose the medal. Now move that issue to one side, because for me it's more about the fact that, the big problem is, is that sport and in life, what's going to now happen is they're probably going to go after him. Whether that's right, whether that's wrong, discussion for another day, but if that guy were to mentally struggle and were to possibly do something that, we, the unimaginable. It's only then that things will change, it's only then, that if Dwayne Chambers had taken his own life, all of a sudden there would be a reflection of “Ah, maybe we shouldn't come after these people and their loved ones.” Christine Ohuruogu back in I think was 2007, where they came after her and her family, and let's even say somebody is guilty. Does it make them an evil person? Does it make everyone around them have to have condemned? Because Christine told me about the fact they were coming, they were following her sister to school. Her sister's friends and peers in school were making her life basically really bad and you think, actually that's the side you don't see. So I’ll see a picture of Lutalo in the papers and go ‘Bad man,’ but actually there's a consequence which could result in something which would, would be unimaginable for all your loved ones, and that never gets really considered in my eyes.

Lutalo Muhammad: I think that's a very, very good point and sadly, we can get so caught up in painting someone as the villain, whether they deserve it or not, but we forget that that person is somebody's son, somebody's daughter.

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: He has a mum, he has a dad, he has sisters, he has family, has friends, and you know what? Even when this whole thing passes uh, or uh, in Christine’s case, they're always gonna, unfortunately, have those detractors and people that um, um, uh, always kind of point the finger.

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: At them even when they might not necessarily deserve it. You know Christine’s case um, was, unfortunately, um, pretty understandable. She uh if I remember correctly, she missed um, she never actually failed the test. She missed tests.

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: And um, uh, you know when you see situations like that, and I remember the atmosphere around that. I remember when she actually got the gold in 2008.

Radzi: Right, yeah.

Lutalo Muhammad: There was still a bit of like, and I will say this. I don't feel like Christine Ohuruogu's ever fully got the credits she deserved

Radzi: 100%.

Lutalo Muhammad: For being Olympic champion.

Radzi: 100%.

Lutalo Muhammad: For being World champion, for being Commonwealth champion, for being European champion. a feat that very few people uh, have ever accomplished. I can only think of Greg Rutherford and Linford Christie, they come to mind. Brits that have done that, won everything, and I felt like she was um, yeah, I, I, I really felt for her, that even though she had that incident, moved on from it in the best possible way, smashing it winning the Olympics. I don't think she ever really fully got the credit uh, she deserves, and I really appreciate that you mentioned um, that um, about her sister because yeah, it just, it, it, it brings to the forefront the effect um, these sensational kind of media stories can have on people um, and like you said um, I think I remember seeing it again with Justin Gatlin. When uh, he was really painted as the uh, when he was the main rival of Usain Bolt. He was really, like the old cowboy movies, he had the guy in the black hat who's evil, and you know the guy in a white hat, that's another conversation entirely. I’m not sure how I feel about that, but it is what it is, but um, I felt like Justin Gatlin was the guy in the black hat and uh, so much so when it came to London 2017, the um uh in the Olympic and the World Championship final. All um, eight uh, men uh, on the field were getting massive cheers, obviously Usain bolt the biggest cheer, but when it came to Justin Gatlin, huge boos, and this is for uh, every single time he raced. He had big, massive boos, and personally I just didn't like how uh, it was like they were blaming Gatlin for the problems of the entire sport. There were other men in that line-up who had tested positive in the past, but Justin Gatlin was getting all the blame for um, a, problem uh, there, if we're just keeping it very real Radzi, has been in athletics for a long time and unfortunately, he, you know, he won't be the last person to fail a drugs test, and neither will CJ. So um -

Radzi: Well mate, let’s, let's add another thing to that equation. So in 2016 in Rio in the pole vault final, the Brazilian was getting cheers and Renard la Villani was getting boos and what happened in the commentary? They condemned it. They said this is disgraceful, there should be complaints made, they should be banned, you shouldn't be allowed to put off your opponent. Well roll on 365 days and there wasn't the same complaints made about Justin Gatlin, and if we go back to the very start of the conversation, when we spoke about the knockout rule in Karate, I spoke about rules being rules. Listen, I’m game for rules, I’m game for a process, I’m game for a procedure but be bloody consistent. Say, -

Lutalo Muhammad: Amen.

Radzi: Boos, if they're banned for one guy, they're banned for everyone, not because, like you say, this guy happens to have the black hat, and I’ll say another thing. I was actually in the stadium when Gatlin got the boos, and I would encourage anyone to watch that footage back. Right now when. watch Gatlin’s face because to me he I believe the boos made him win, -

Lutalo Muhammad: Yep.

Radzi: because I believe the boos almost absolved him of actual tension. he, it started off in the boo. he was kind of semi-expecting it and then it carried on just for a couple of extra seconds, and you almost saw him go “Ah forget it,” almost as though “I don't care anymore.” Whereas 2015 he was, he was in the form of his life, he was faster than Usain bolt all season and the last five metres he tightened which he's never done before in his entire life.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: So, the difference maker this time, there was no tightening because “I don't care anymore! These guys are never gonna forgive me, they're never gonna forget I’m always gonna be the black hat guy, so I don't care. I’m just gonna run free.” Upshot, he's now the world champion, having been the world champion before, but he was the world champion in 2017 and I put it down to that crowd, in the London Olympic arena that day.

Lutalo Muhammad: Man you're spot-on with that observation Radzi. Uh, I, I too was in that uh, crowd on that day, and uh, I definitely wasn't booing. I, I hated it. However, I, I think it helped him. I think it helped him, um, like you um, and again I remember that race in 20 uh, um, 15 where he should have won. Um, he was in form. I think in the semi-finals he ran 9.83 which had been uh, which would have been enough to win. Uh so he clearly was in the top, top form, but I think that tension, and Usain bolt did, does what Usain bolt always does, he finishes strong, and he won that race, whereas um, I, I had the exact same observation, and you know what Radzi? Especially as someone that's faced um, adversity going into a big event before, I was actually happy for him and taking all, you know, your politics or your um, your view, your views on people that um, have failed drug tests out of it, in that moment I was really happy for him because I didn't think that he deserved what he, um, the treatment that he got. I was actually a little bit disappointed as um, as someone that represents Britain, that this is how we received a uh, someone that's come here to compete, who's trained hard and for crying out loud is not the only person uh, in that final line-up, never mind in the entire tournament that had failed a drugs test. Um, I just felt like um, we could have done better and uh, I was actually very disappointed in the crowd, however I was happy for, for Gatlin on that day. So um, yeah maybe, I know you said it, everything happens for a reason, but I did feel like it was, that was one of those moments.

Radzi: For me, it's, the reason I was happy for him because I was as well, um was ,it was a case of “Let he without sin cast the first stone,” because, yeah.

Lutalo Muhammad: Amen.

Radzi: That guy may not have failed a drugs test, but I would ask them, have they been faithful in every relationship? Have they ever cheated in an exam? Have they ever lied to somebody? Gotten ang- listen, this is what, I deal with that on a daily basis, sinning, ultimately, I’m not, I’m so far from perfect it's unbelievable. So this guy just happens to have reneged on one element of his life. Let's not pretend that he's any worse than me, he's certainly not any worse than me. He might be worse than other people, but he isn't worse than me, and so I think ,actually when I, I, remember, actually 2015 was it? No, it was 2017. So the 2017 USA trials. So he wins that, and the interviewer guy called John, think it was John Lewis says to him, uh, “Justin it was looking pretty clear that you were going to win that,” and he said, “How are you feeling?” He said, “I’m really relieved, really relieved,” he said, “Are you?” He said “Yeah, because I’ve already bought my mum's and dad's plane ticket for London and booked the hotel.” So, and that to me is that that's because we forget that he is a son and I, all I thought when those boos were happening is “Their parents, his parents are having to listen to that,” and it's, that's tough, and back to your point when you said the fact that your parents got stressed out made me stressed out. When the journey of my world to presenting people just see, “I hold a microphone and it was as easy as pie.” They don't see the three years part living in Manchester in Hatter’s Hostel with mice running through the kitchen, that I couldn't even afford to live in the bleeding hostel, and part of the stress was my mum. Knowing that my mum had all the faith in the world in me ,and I wanted to put her faith in a, in a place of validation, I wanted to do her proud. She's, I know she's always going to be proud of me, but I wanted to do it justice, and so actually I think there's a, we talk about Caroline Flack, “Be kind.” Well let's be kind across the bleeding border, and that's, um but I want to also talk to you about your broadcast career because, and I say career, what happened as a result of you not going to Tokyo was, mate, your punditry, the country loved it. How was, how was that for you?

Lutalo Muhammad: It was um it was really, really nice to me, I mean, I said at an Olympics um, I’m always looking to be there and uh, there's disappointment with not qualifying. However maybe it was a little bit um, easier than it could have been because it did kind of feel a little bit outside my control with the injury situation, so, and, there was enough time before it was announced where I knew um, what was going on so um, uh, and I all, I feel like, the next best thing if you can't be an Olympics is to uh, be able to uh, or for me to talk about my friends and to, to, um, uh, to do some punditry. So um, I, I still felt like I was really involved in it, so I was very, very happy when um, the BBC um, gave me that call and um, I remember just wanting to do myself and do my sport justice. Um, that's really, if I had any goals going in that's all it was and, um I, I started to feel the buzz uh, after day one, you know, start to get a bunch of tweets and um “Okay that's very nice that a couple people are tweeting me,” and by day two it was um, kind of viral and it was very, it was a little bit weird uh, because I found it very similar to the Olympics in a way. You'll know obviously from um being in broadcasting that um, when you're in the green room and when you're in the studio you kind of are in a bubble, and I saw it very similar to the Olympic village where kinda, you know, you're checking your phone a little bit but you kind of close off to the outside world and um, you're not really tuning into everything that's going on. It's only when you come out, finish your shift you kind of fully realise that “Oh wow, this is a bit bigger than I thought.” So overall Radzi I’m just really, really um, grateful and um, flattered that people took so well to my um, my analyst work, and all I can put it down to is um, I’m, I’m extremely passionate about sports it, um, as a whole, not just combat sport uh, and I think that just shines through. Um, uh, I, I, uh, you know obviously get emotional when I’m seeing my friends compete but um, you know I’m just grateful that the public took so well to it and I’m just relishing the opportunities that are coming as a result of it. So, you know my overall feeling is just uh, hugely flattered, hugely grateful and uh, just very happy that people um, took so well um, uh, to my um, uh, Olympic performance, uh, which didn't involve me competing at the Olympics.

[Both chuckle]

Radzi: Just finally is, so if we fast forward three years. So Paris happens, let's say the dream happens and you get gold.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes.

Radzi: What would the next four, eight, ten years look like for you?

Lutalo Muhammad: as an Olympic gold medallist in Paris 2024, I think um, I’ll be looking uh, and seriously considering if I want to do another cycle. Um, I’ll be 33 years old in Paris and if I was to go on for LA I’ll be 37. Um, although I’m taking it one cycle at a time I’m really, hugely inspired by um, athletes who are still performing at optimum level, even though they're older, so I would consider you know uh, Cristiano Ronaldo, in that 36 years old is still looking amazing. Uh, Tom Brady is a massively obvious one -

Radzi: Right, right.

Lutalo Muhammad: Um, who's still competing I believe, 42 this year.

Radzi: Right.

Lutalo Muhammad: I want to say so um I’m really inspired -

Radzi: Elliot.

Lutalo Muhammad: Exactly, wow, wow. I mean um, exactly. So um, uh, um, you know, someone like him is still uh, you know able to break world records uh, at an age where most people wouldn't have thought to be possible. That really inspires me, so I think I’ll seriously be considering going for another Olympic cycle but um, beyond that um, I definitely love doing um, the tv analyst work. I um, admire people like Michael Johnson who made the transition very well, Jeanette Quachie has made her transition extremely well, so impressive but she's just amazing and um, and others um, and I think um, I’ll just be looking to um, straddle uh, that uh, media as along with uh, my Taekwondo and um, I’m also really passionate about teaching Radzi. I mean uh, my dad still has his Taekwondo school in Hackney, um, north -

Radzi: What’s it called by the way?

Lutalo Muhammad: It's called the Taekwondo Academy, nice and simple on um, uh, Prince George Road just off Stoke Newington Road. Been in Stokey for 24 years now so it's a very long-standing business. You know, pretty much everyone in the community knows my dad, and it's, that really makes me proud of him and um, I ,uh definitely see myself um, getting involved uh, more uh, permanently with my family business. I love teaching. I love uh, the martial arts and helping pass on that skill to another generation, to pass on the skills that have helped me I believe become a better man, um, a better um, uh, martial artist, has given me health, it's given me uh, wellness, it's given me a career, it's given me a platform to which I’ve been able to explore other careers. I would love to pass on that blessing that my dad passed on to me, not just to my future children but to um, other young people, and uh, people of all ages. I mean, I’ve been in the class Radzi where the youngest has been seven and the oldest has been 70. So I’m not, that's why, and I know you as passionate about the martial arts uh, as me and it just um, that's one of the things I love so much. You can um, it really is, uh, it's more than physical activities, more than self-defence. It's life skills and I think they apply to uh people of all ages, genders and um, and everything else. It just applies to everybody and um, I, I would well, I will love and enjoy um, doing some teaching. So I, I think that's where, that's what's going to keep me most occupied um, after my career is um, certainly getting more involved in the family business and uh, ideally um, uh, doing some more analyst work. I, I need to get involved with the boxing man, that's the, that's, that's, that's the dream. That's the dream, I’d love to be doing some work on the boxing. I’m actually gonna be doing some work on the MMA soon which I’m super excited about -

Radzi: Nice.

Lutalo Muhammad: Uh Bellator, um, I’ll be doing some stuff with the BBC. Uh going to see MVP Michael “Venom” Page -

Radzi: Yes.

Lutalo Muhammad: Who I know you're a big fan of um. I think I’m uh, going to chat with him next week, we're doing some stuff around the build-up and some stuff on the day of the fight. Uh, he's fighting on October 1st in uh, London Wembley Arena, big fight against Douglas Lima coming up. So um, uh, tv work uh, and just media work, with the combat sports especially uh, and uh, teaching. I think those two things will keep me very busy and very happy uh, when I decide to hang out my um, my tape on those socks.

Radzi: Mate it's been an absolute pleasure, thank you so much for squeezing me in and also the bit that people won't necessarily know is you've currently got food in the oven that you've switched off, so I feel very blessed that you, you found time mate. It's always an absolute privilege so thank you sir.

Lutalo Muhammad: Well the pleasure is all mine Radzi, I really enjoyed the interview. It's always um, great to be um, have a conversation with someone as knowledgeable uh, as yourself and I hope it's not the last time, I hope you have me back. I've had a great time today, so thank you for having me.

Radzi: Definitely have you back my friend and all the best luck in the, for the next competition and training cycle.

Lutalo Muhammad: Yes, same to you, good luck with your pursuit of excellence. Take care.

Radzi: Thank you dude.

[voice over]
Naked bacon. One day, all bacon will be made this way.


Episode Sixteen: Lutalo Muhammad video

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