Radzi: Today's guest is a badass of mammoth proportions a former royal marine commando and special forces soldier Jason Fox.
[Music]
Radzi: Damn hello and welcome to Making Gains in association with the University of Derby and Finnebrogue Naked Bacon, the biggest revolution to happen to British breakfast in a generation. Now our guest on today's episode I cannot tell you how delighted I was when I found out he was officially going to be coming onto the show. This is the man who was a part of a team the first-ever team to row unassisted from mainland Europe to South America, the same team that rode from the UK to America unassisted crossing the Atlantic Ocean in so doing. He has spent 20 years in the military, 10 years as a marine, 10 years in the SBS, no less you might recognise him as a star of SAS, the show on Channel 4, as well as a two-time author Jason Fox. Welcome to Making Gains Sir. Big applause for you mate you're a popular guy.
Jason: Hey mate thanks very much that's a that was a, that's an unbelievable intro. I was like who's this bloke that's coming on though
Radzi: I said SBS so Special Boat Service um. there's a lot of confusion when it comes to special forces between SAS and SBS what actually are the differences?
Jason: Now there is virtually no difference. There structured the same you do the same course as if you're all, you're all on the same selection course together and then at the end you just go to different geographical places. You work together a lot you sort of there's a lot of cross-pollination with regard to who you work with, it's just it the names are legacy names from the second world war. So there is there isn't actually a lot of difference and they're all commanded from the same headquarters within London.
Radzi: Ah thank you, so there is that a bit of a myth between basically the big question is who's the hardest the SBS or the SAS and a lot of people in the know will go the SBS boys are the hardest so that kind of, is it true?
James: Obviously no I mean there's still there is still because of the geography of the two units and the name and all that differs is one letter there is always a little bit of healthy rivalry but you're from the same, you're from the same place really and it's like it's like a b brother and sister it's like two brothers sorry you know you're always gonna have a little bit of bickering every now and again.
Radzi: Yeah right exactly in terms of training specifically for the SBS, what was that process like so you're a commando and then how long do you have to spend to essentially either get the nod or not?
Jason: So you go through your career and you sort of so for me I was I joined the marines and within the marines as well you've got, there's different specialisations you can go and become um a mountain leader, you can do something in heavy weapons, you can be a chef, you could be a driver, there's lots of different things and as I went through mine I was very much interested in the soldiering side of life and I was interested you know as big into my fitness and what have you and so after a period of time I was like well I might as well put in first what you do is you request to go on the selection course and you but I suppose the powers that be can say oh no you know you're not ready for it or you know you've been you haven't been a good boy so we're not gonna let you go on it but ultimately it's up to you when you want to try and go for it.
Radzi: So you were a marine for 10 years at the point that you went across so you started at 16. So were you around mid-20s when you actually went to the SBS?
Jason: Yeah, yeah it's probably just shy of 10 years. It's like nine so I think I was about 25 and um yeah just sort of I was at that point where I was I’m, I’m enjoying being a soldier but I want to, I want to up it a little bit and so you know there's always been this pull towards that that world for me I knew a few people that had done it and so yeah that was that's what it was, I was like yeah let's, let's, let's give it a go.
Radzi: Because you mentioned that you were fit, was that fit as in gym strong, was that running, was it what type of fitness was it that you were good at?
Jason: I think at that stage of the game it was all about endurance distance running. You know carrying a heavy pack. it was I’d say I was more robust than um super fit enough and that's the sort of that's where you want to be when you go on that course. You want to be, you want to be a robust individual that can take, take a few knocks but keep on you know going running not so much running, running but occasionally running with a heavy pack on over horrendous terrain.
Radzi: Is that what you guys call yomping?
Jason: Young marines call it yomping, the army calls it tabbing. Same thing.
Radzi: Okay and how much are you carrying when you do that?
Jason: Um it can vary but I mean on the selection course you start off with about I think it's 65 pounds on your back, minus food and water and then you I think it goes up to about 85-90. This quite is quite heavy. What body weight am I?
Radzi: Were you at that point? Yeah when you're carrying that weight?
Jason: I was I was actually quite, I was a lot slighter than I am now. I don't know probably, I don't know hundred, what was I? I’m trying thing is I use pounds and then now I think in metric and it all it, all throws it out so it's probably about 75-80 kilograms. I’ve got a lot lighter.
Radzi: Is that a sort of an average build for a guy in the SF?
Jason: Yeah it varies a lot now, a lot of, I mean, I was quite slight and everyone back then was but you know I think the way people approach fitness now across the board is different and so you know that in turn changes within the military as well but I was much more, I was more about the endurance side of distance and you do cover on the selection course, you cover some unbelievable distances carrying that weight.
Radzi: And it's not in Barbados that you're doing it either?
Jason: Unfortunately not no. Although to be fair Barbados would be a real it would be a stinker because of the humidity.
Radzi: It's, what any SF guy that I kind of had the privilege of speaking to what always kind of gets me about them is how relatively normal they look. As in I was filming for Blue Peter I was doing, uh actually skydiving with the RAF Falcons and I worked out that one of the guys was from the SF and I knew who it was, I knew because I saw the biggest dude there and then no it's not him and then it took me three days and I basically went up to a guy, I won't say his name, I went up to him I said excuse me I said, are you in the SAS and he looked at me and I thought oh no I just shouldn't have asked I’ve worded it all wrong, um and he said who have you been speaking to and I said I just, I just was trying to work I knew there was somebody important here and I presumed it was you and he told me a few bits and bobs but what, what I just couldn't get over is the nuts you guys have to have to do that job as in it's not, I kind of presumed you'd be 30 man strong teams and what you let me know is actually a lot of it might be you on your own, self-reliant, and I mean are you born like that or is it something that you it's trained into you?
Jason: No I don't think, I don't think anyone's born like that. I think there are certain things that can happen to people along their journey of life and some people do experience stuff at a young age, you know, whether they've grown up in a difficult, a difficult area or the background of the family has been difficult that then obviously will breed a form of resilience into people. But for me I mean I grew up in a slightly rough area but I actually had a decent childhood and a good background but I think mine was actually you know joining the military and being passionate about it and passionate about that career that I created my own resilience going along that journey I suppose. But yeah that I don't think anyone's born with it but definitely an upbringing and where you are from can definitely lend itself to you being a slightly resilient person.
Radzi: If you were to kind of connect dots between all the people you think of when you say success in the military would there be any themes that you'd say ah in order to be successful you need to have X, Y or Z or a particular kind of personality or?
Jason: Yeah I think there is like we go back to sort of that physical robustness that you've got because there's a lot of luck involved and there's always potential for injury along the way and if you can, you know roll with the punches and that's going to help you but I think a lot of it comes down to having a flexible mindset, you know not being too phased when things go wrong um and ultimately if I’m brutally honest it's gotta be someone that's quite stubborn as well.
Radzi: Okay, say again I’ve heard you describe yourself as that before.
Jason: Yeah my approach towards um tasks I, I would say I’m reasonably stubborn. I’m not, I’m not prepared to sort of embrace not so much failure because obviously that comes along the way but I’m not, I’m not prepared to give up when, when um when failures presented itself you know I’ll pick myself back up and be like right how do we go back at it.
Jason: Right because something that I really again took from anyone that I’ve even seen on TV is this kind of separation from emotion when describing things so even in your book Battle Scars, all the stories that you tell. My version would be bullets were flying overhead and I was, whereas it's so fact-based that you're vividly recalling the colour, you talk about the green of the night vision and the smell. It's, it's very it's visceral but it isn't, it isn't emotional. Is again is that something that you just?
Jason: Yeah I think a lot of that comes from the training so you're just constantly conditioned although not, consciously it's subconsciously constantly doing something over and over and over and over again, that it sort of becomes the norm but all those things you, you're expected as a, as a, an individual within those units to be receptive of everything like the colours and the smells because they, they're essentially called in the military, we call them combat indicators but it's basically an indication of a, of a moment that you need to switch on. So it's like right my life is now green, I can smell this, I need to switch on you know things are in a, we're in a, it's a dangerous situation but ultimately the emotional side, emotions don't lend themselves to positive outcomes sometimes and so you, I’ve the amount of times I’ve like thought back and sort of reflected on it and even though you're in situations that involve what I suppose is extreme violence you know you're in a battle but I never ever remember feeling, seeing or experience anyone that is angry. It's weird you speak to people they're like oh you must have been so angry when that happened and you're like no everything was a matter of fact because it has to be, because if you allow yourself to be angry then chances are you're going to make some wrong decisions.
Radzi: Which is nuts given, given the context it's nuts.
Jason: It's nice looking back on it that doesn't sound quite right but anyway it is what it is you know.
Radzi: When it comes to the SF, I used to do a bit of skeleton bobsleigh and if I ever did an interview people would always say what inspires you to dive headfirst on a tea tray and all the rest of it and I think well it's not on a tea tray. You're not diving anywhere, it's lazy questions and I think if you only ask the right question there's so much about this sport that actually you'd find interesting. What don't we know about the SF that you think we actually should know?
Jason: The first of all and I have always said this actually some people might know but it is just ordinary people it's like we're all ordinary the world is full of ordinary people just some of them do extraordinary things like the skeleton. So as an outsider I genuinely think the skeleton is bonkers because it I mean it's something I’d love to ever go out but it is it is bonkers but I think the first thing is, yeah there's just, it's just a group of ordinary people that are willing to do extraordinary things. And then I don't know because it's weird I, I, I sit down with my mates that have left or still in and I’m like mate do you remember when we did X, that you know X,Y or Z and like when you look at it from a detached you know point of view you're like how the hell how, how did we do that sort of stuff and then and I think it does it does come down to like the stubbornness and the want to keep achieving something but what everyone does think that people in the special forces have got no sense of humour and it couldn't be further from the truth. I’ve, I’ve never had so much fun within what some people would see as quite a serious environment or career it was, it was, it was almost relentless. The abuse and banter I mean.
Radzi: The banter in the military is, is off of the charts. That was again the lads stuff I’ve done with them off camera I think wow how are you with this kind of stuff.
Jason: It is brutal it is and it's and I’m not gonna like, I’m not gonna advocate but I think sometimes that ability to not take yourself seriously even if it is at quite an extreme level is very important when you're doing something that's quite extreme. You've always got to have a sense of humour whether it's slightly twisted or not because ultimately you're still in a good mindset ,you've still got a positive if you're if you're having fun to a weird degree you've still got a positive mindset. It's, it's when it's when someone isn't cracking jokes or having a little bit of a dig that you've got to think to yourself right hang on what's going on here, there's, there's obviously something that's gone really bad for it for it to be that for us to be in such a dark pit.
Radzi: I know obviously you're into your fitness before you still into your fitness now. If I finish a gym session and it's gone well I feel pretty flipping good how do you actually feel when a mission has gone well? What, what's going through your head?
Jason: Um it's it, is a it's a euphoric feeling it's very addictive as well but it is also the other side of it is because the byproduct of doing those sort of things can be negative as well because ultimately you've gone in and you're, you're engaging with the enemy so belonging is, is far greater so when you've done succeeded in mission and you've done stuff with the guys that you essentially love, it's that sense of belonging and the identity and, and there's kudos behind it as well within the within the organisation. So yeah it's, it's a it's great you can't do it forever I mean at the time I wished I could but ultimately as you get older, thank God I’m not doing that anymore it's.
Radzi: Do you feel like King Alfred when you're doing it? As in being walking around just in life knowing what you're doing is so off the charts and even just the idea of whether it's hostages that you're going to be rescuing just the idea that it doesn't matter which geezers are inside that building, we are the guys with the biggest nuts. Is that is that a great feeling?
Jason: There is, there is that you have it's important to keep it in check though because okay, it can, you can,you can trip up. I mean I’ve, I’ve actually been on a hostage rescue mission that was one of the most craziest, craziest things I’ve ever been involved in and the, the, the emotional rollercoaster on that from fear to, you know, being like that alpha sort of like cutting around knowing that you're feeling like you're the toughest thing on the planet it comes and goes in waves and sometimes you have to check it but yeah it is you know you finish those things we, you know on that one mission we rescued a journalist and you come back you're like, ah that's awesome we, you know we just saved someone's life that's pretty, and we were, we were getting hammered as well that we, we, we were outnumbered big time but we still got out of there with this guy intact. So yeah there is there is a lot of there is a lot of that but it's very important to keep in check because if that runs away of itself then you could find yourself in a sticky position.
Radzi: And how long do you have to prepare for something like that when you are out flanked, you are outnumbered but ultimately you're gonna?
Jason: I think, I think those I think my whole career was all about preparing me for those moments. You know that come every now and again but I mean you know that the irony is that what we went on that time the, the information changed at the last minute and we had to change our entire approach and everything we'd spoken about beforehand changed and so it is more about what you've learned long the way as opposed to what you know about them now because the now changes so quickly.
Radzi: Is there a sense of like no in any team you have a natural leader whether whether or not they are the official leader and if one guy is looking a little bit um not too sure it sends ripples down the rest of the team. Is there a case of you get that the information's changed, are you looking to go is this actually all right are we still going to her head or is it just presumed that this is happening regardless, the information just happens to have changed?
Jason: So on, on, on other missions that require a lot of time and time thought effort to go into planning if things change the last minute you'll probably pull the, pull the plug on it and be like outright lads let's just, let's just chill for a bit assess the situation, recock and then go again at a later date whereas this was a different kettle of fish because it was, it was a hostage rescue. He wasn't in a great position the information changed but the fact was he's in a very dangerous situation and he needs to, we need someone to try and attempt to get him out of that situation so it was a case of you know that information changed, we got briefed up, briefed it out to everyone else and everyone's, uh yeah we're good to go, let's go you know. We, we understand what the situation is we've, we've signed along the dotted line and you know we're willing to, not only do we live by the sword but we're willing to die by it because of that.
Radzi: A lot of the missions that again in your book seem to be at night time, during the actual day if you've got a mission, do you even think about what you eat? Is your mind all about the mission? Is every minute planned out ahead of it? What's that day like?
Jason: The day I mean most stuff is at night, we prefer the night, that's our friend, but you know the day, the days if you weren't doing anything and because sometimes we did go out in the day, you know, the missions would dictate that but a lot of the time the structure to the day was quite set in stone you know, you'd get, I’d get up in the morning wake up a few you know. The other the lads that I trained we would get up, we used to have fresh coffee brilliant, with a coffee grinder beans in awesome fresh coffee straight bean to cup and then we'd basically go you know we had our own little gym we'd go there, we'd do a you know we trained like unbelievably when we were away it was like a six month health farm. Meals were always prepped really well, decent food probably if we could and we wanted to we didn't think we were working in the evening we'd bang out a second training session because you just didn't, you're in that zone and you you feel strong, you feel fit you're in a really clean head space and then you know. If we if we were going to go out on missions and you know the build-up to that even though you're doing little bits of briefs throughout the day, the build-up would start around say four o'clock in the afternoon where you're starting to get yourself into the right headspace, talking about what it is you might be doing so on and so forth and then you know you're into that sort of cycle.
Radzi: Have you ever gone into a situation thinking it's more likely than not that I’m not going to come out of this?
Jason: There was that one that I spoke about earlier once we sort of got on the ground there was a few times when we were on the ground where as I I’m not convinced that this you know, if we bit enough more than we can chew it you know there was, there was some serious, serious stuff going down and you know there was a couple of moments where I personally and I know some of the other lads were along with because we've discussed it but it was like oh you know I don't know whether I’m going to get out of it. There's a moment where you're like your mouth goes dry and you start wandering and thinking about the people back home and then you sort of snap out of it, you're like right hang on a minute I’m not giving up now you know we've got to find a way out of this situation, and we did you know thanks to other people but there are times yeah definitely when.
Radzi: Every time you speak and you kind of um recount something I’ve kind of got images in my head that kind of movie images that flash into my head. Have you ever seen a film and gone, actually to be fair that is pretty accurate?
Jason: Yeah, yeah there is so there's the one it's a good film actually there's one called Zero Dark Thirty which is, it's all about the sort of the story behind how the Americans were trying to capture Bin Laden and at the very end of that you've got a 45 minute and the whole thing's brilliant but the last 45 minutes I think is solely about the SEAL team that goes in and undoes that raid and I remember watching it for the first time and I was like ah wow the girl that, it was a girl, a lady that uh directed it um Kathryn Bigelow, how she's, how she captures that 45 minutes is unbelievable, like the atmosphere from it going from noisy to silence. There's always like an eerie silence as well within these, these nights that you you're a part of and how she encapsulated that is unbelievable and, and it does you know I watch it and every now and again I’ll watch it again because I really enjoy it and it makes the hairs on the back of my head stand up a little bit. Even down to the way that the, the operators, the guys on the ground are chatting to each other the general chitchat as they're involved in something quite serious is, it's quite close to the mark. Yeah good film recommend it for that.
Radzi: Done. Yeah I’ll take your recommendation. You mentioned the SEAL there, there are special forces around the world because we're very proud to say we've got the finest special forces in the world but we happen to be the country that is saying it so are we actually heading shoulders above the rest?
Jason: I’ve, I think yes definitely we are. I think the Americans are very good you know. I can't, they, they've got I mean they've got the added luxury of money, but they do their guys do commit to whatever it is that they're doing. They've sacrificed a lot. We've learned, we've learned a lot from them as they've learned from us. So I would say we're on a, we're on a par.
Radzi: Oh okay.
Jason: With the Americans but again you know the Canadians uh Australia uh, Australians, New Zealanders, they've all got good, good, good individuals within them.
Radzi: In terms of, I have to talk to you about your PTSD because you've spoken so openly and honestly about that. It really is incredible. If I could ask you the same thing I asked you before, what do we not know about particularly your journey of PTSD because you've spoken a lot about it and obviously your answers are limited to the questions that get asked to you?
Jason: I mean I think my my PTSD and I’m not going to talk for everyone but mine didn't manifest itself in like the Hollywood sense. Whereas everyone expects me to the reason I was affected was because I came back home and I was having flashbacks and a car would backfire and I’d dive behind some bins for cover. It wasn't like that at all mine was just a complete changing mood, I, I just felt differently about myself and a career and I think if I’d have just embraced that earlier and, and decided to address it earlier I probably would have would have stayed in that job but because I didn't and I didn't recognise it that's why I, I went on this sort of downward spiral into depression because I wasn't willing to understand why I felt differently and it annoyed me but I wasn't being honest if that makes sense with myself and so it wasn't, yeah it definitely wasn't because of um, all of the all of the symptoms that people would expect it was as it was as simple but as unrecognisable as, as a change in mood.
Radzi: Thank you for that it's funny there was um actually a guy I spoke to from the SBS, I, I currently have therapy so I see a therapist about my dad. My dad passed away a few years ago and I, I never really addressed it and um and I basically was working at the Invictus Trials. The UK Invictus Trials 2019, there's a guy called Alan White aka Commando Teddy Bear and he's kind of on the road to recovery um after being injured in the SF and um and basically I was, I just randomly dropped something into here I think I must have just in past and mentioned are quite flippantly our single therapist and he just paused and whatever it was he did he pulled a lot of information out of me that I don't normally give and um you said what happens if you fill up a balloon, and I said um it gets bigger ones if you keep filling it up until it gets even bigger but once we keep filling it up as well eventually it will burst. Right some people have got a small balloon other people have a massive balloon but you put enough air in it it will burst and when he said it there were other people around but I, I nearly just burst into tears because I felt like he just described me. He'd I’d gotten to bring and it, it was at that tipping point and I had burst and the fact he just obviously seen it in me and a bloke like him who's been through what he's been through just made me think yes I am going to own this thing and I am going to get therapy and I think it's awesome that guys like yourselves, proper alpha males are speaking out about people talk about shining a light or men should talk more but I think men should speak honestly as well and in an, in a way that I guess it you permit so many other people to be vulnerable if that makes sense.
Jason: Yeah I think, I mean thank you but um I think there's a, there's a huge strength that comes from vulnerability especially admitting it there's you know. I remember when I first started talking about it and then I obviously used the, the platform of SAS Who Dares Wins as, as a bigger platform to talk about it and I was absolutely the build up to that episode going out was, I was, I was not a great person to be around. I’m really worried about it anxious you know what people gonna think and then the minute it did come out like the empowerment I got from that because I didn't, I didn't have to worry about this façade that I kept putting up because there it was the dirty washing was for all to be seen and if you if you don't like it there's not a lot I can do about it because that's just who I am and it was I can't implore people enough to do that and be honest with yourself and go and start a journey if you're feeling not quite right go and start the journey of looking for the right person to talk to. But it is essentially about releasing a pressure valve you know. What I mean and it's nothing to be embarrassed about and it doesn't detract away from you being a man you know if, if, if, if it's men that are listening it doesn't detract away from women being women. It's, it's just something that needs to be done and you can do it in a way that still fits in with your, you know, you, you sort of tough guy ego if that's what you want, because I’ve got friends who are some of the hardest people I’ve ever met in my life and yet we still touch base with each other checking, hey mate how's it going yeah not bad you know. Sometimes there might be a few issues, we'll discuss it, work out a decent way to attack it and you know everyone's feeling a lot better. So I think it's you know talking about something and, and allowing yourself to be vulnerable is is powerful.
Radzi: Mate thank you for saying that. What you just said was powerful. Let's ask when you say hardest people you know, what, what does that look and sound like when you say somebody is hard?
Jason: U, they, I mean like you said and you, you've experienced they come in all shapes and sizes but there's just a presence about some people I’ve, you know, I’ve got some really good friends who are what they've achieved and what they've done is, is on another level and you, I would suggest when I say that I mean what's in their head is, is resilient, is they are like nothing phases them and They will they'll take on the world and probably come out you know not far off the top. So yeah it's I suppose there's a few people I know that I, I genuinely am glad that I’ve had around me when I’ve been in some sticky situations.
Radzi: Right okay. You mentioned Who Dares Wins there, when you were talking about PTSD and you say in your book it's a new brotherhood for you, is that how it feels?
Jason: Yeah it does. Yeah we have a laugh. We have a laugh, the contestants don’t.
Radzi: Yeah right yeah.
Jason: Um no they do actually, but um it is, it is a brotherhood. It is a you know, it is, it's very welcome you know. We finished our careers um being involved in lots of different things and then this opportunity came about and I remember when the first series finished I was walking, we were walking down the main little road of the location we're in, we literally just finished and I was out to Ollie and I was like walking beside me, I just said mate that's it's just this is like this is that thing that was missing like we're together we're having a good crack. I said I could do this over and over again for the rest of its journey but yeah it's, it's a great feeling. We have a great laugh and there's some, it's a good little bit of camaraderie, there's a nice sense of belonging there.
Radzi: But I have to say for me what perfectly sums up the transition or basically the comparison between a TV person, TV personality and someone who's been there and done it was what you did with captain kids lost treasure. That oh yeah was hilarious because in that documentary you've basically got experts who seem to find basically nothing and then you on your own go and actually find the actual lost treasure.
Jason: It was yeah. It was me and it was actually the, the series producer who also doubled up as the underwater cameraman, Sam Brown, who is a loose cannon in a good way. Um he yeah, he we decided we'd go and have a look for ourselves because we were bored. We'd spent four weeks in an amazing place, we were amazing, excuse me, with amazing people but we did have a little bit of a rummage around yeah and we, we found a lump of metal.
Radzi: And that metal was the metallic everyone asked him to find sort of teapots and you actually found?
Jason: Yeah we it was a 55 kilogram silver ingot. There's been dispute about it but okay I, I was there it's a silver ingot.
Radzi: Hey do you reckon you'll do any more docs? Because some of the stuff you were doing about the narcos mate they are just so good.
Jason: I, I hope so I am there's a few things in the pipeline not guaranteed but I really you know, I love SAS Who Dares Wins and I love the dynamic that it is but you know those documentaries I really loved doing them. It was, it's an amazing experience to go to places that you wouldn't normally be able to go to and learn about other people and, and you know the trials and tribulations that they have to face on a daily basis. It was, it was enlightening, scary at times but it was, it was an amazing experience yeah, and I hope I hope that hopefully there'll be more to come but who knows.
Radzi: Yeah fingers crossed mate and when you say scary is that partly because you don't have that team around you that you're possibly used to and it's not then just you on your own in an environment surrounded by tv people like me who aren't made for that environment.
Jason: You say that but these TV people and special forces aren't, aren't that far different fundamentally. But um your approach to things, our approach to things but um yeah there was an element of it being the fact that I wasn't, I didn't have backup so to speak you know. There's a lot of systems and procedures in place to mitigate it against but I think a lot of it also is those people are dangerous and they are very, very unpredictable and you have to keep a very level calm head about you and not rise to, ego's got to be left at the door in those situations you cannot go in thinking you're all that because they will they will do something that you don't like so. It was, it was, it was amazing you know I learned a lot but I did call have to call upon you know, being in special forces as well a lot of people think that you go in guns blazing, you don't. Normally you're in small teams like you said earlier and it's all about relationship management you know, dealing with unpredictable people you don't necessarily want to get into a fight. You just want things to go the way you want them to go and actually if you don't need to throw a punch or shoot a gun that's a better way of it going. So I that's what I adopted more of and it was very frightening but it was also exhilarating and, and, and it was unbelievable to meet those people.
Radzi: Yeah it was unbelievable to see it. Just going back to the SF finally, what was your euphoria moment back then? You talk about in your book kind of taking off your pack at the end of it and feeling your back just stretch and relax but what, what do you kind of live for in that moment?
Jason: Um I would say probably the feeling of brotherhood. The, the unconditional love and trust that you've got for one another whether you like them or not, that feeling of knowing that you can trust your life with people that are around you and vice versa hopefully it's an unbelievable feeling.
Radzi: Yeah well I think that's the perfect place to end on brotherhood. Jason thank you so much for your time. Also thank you for your service mate because I think what you guys do we, we only know a tiny sliver of a fraction and I envy, I would basically like to have the balls to be able to do what you've done so thank you very much mate.
Jason: Thanks very much um likewise, chucking yourself down a skeleton requires quite a bit good effort.
Radzi: Here's all the best.
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